Following on from the success of our inaugural philanthropy forum at Elston House in Brisbane, we gathered at the Art Gallery of NSW in March for another inspiring discussion. Our second forum was once again hosted by Elston’s Head of Philanthropic Services, Susan Chenoweth. Susan looked at the challenges, highlighted the opportunities and, together with her passionate panelists, explored the ways that positive change for the whole community often starts with giving through a gender lens.

Below is a transcript of the evening’s forum.

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Susan:

Tonight our focus is on gender equity. And in our panel discussion, we’ll look at quite a few of the challenges that we all face in our society today that arise from gender inequality. Not just for the women who experience those inequities from a humanitarian perspective, but also the effect that this has on all of us and our economy and our wellbeing.

And I’d like to introduce to you our speakers, who are all leaders in their fields, both nationally and internationally. To my left, we have Julie Reilly, and Julie is the CEO of Australians Investing in Women. Kate Jordan is a corporate lawyer who serves as General Counsel and Executive General Manager, Company, Secretariat, Risk and Governance at Origin Energy. Fiona Lang was appointed General Manager Australia and New Zealand for the BBC just two years ago.

So Julie, Kate and Fiona, your work is instrumental in changing lives, communities and the way that we all live. And I was wondering if you could each share with us just what motivates you to make such a personal contribution to gender equality. We might start with you, Fiona.

Fiona:

So I consider myself to be quite fortunate in every stage in which I’ve worked or any discipline. I’ve always felt incredibly supported normally by women that have come before me, and so it doesn’t take much to see the inequality. So I sort of see it as quite a personal calling for me to give back. And you’ll hear more about how we can give back later.

Kate:

Yeah, for me, I, I’m a – I believe that equality in every form really matters. And for me, Good Return, I just had this incredible connection with an organisation that is about economic empowerment of women and their families and when I think about the barriers that women in poor countries face, you know, in developing countries, the poorest of the poor, and we think about the issues that women experience in our country, the issues that they experience are so much more profound.

And the work that Good Return is doing is changing the system in which they live and helping them to achieve economic empowerment. And for me, that is the most powerful model and it feels, as always, just felt like an incredible privilege that I got to be involved with Good Return.

Julie:

There’s so many ways I could answer that question and I think I might just go perhaps to the personal, even though it wasn’t necessarily what I thought motivated me. When I look back, my mother lived a violent marriage with four children under five at a time, well before refuges or actually before government support. I am quite grown up.

Been around a while. So this was in the sixties. And I think even though I probably was uncomfortable, my sisters and I were quite uncomfortable with Mum’s fairly strong, shall we say, feminism. As I’ve grown up, I’ve kind of understood that more and more so very much watching what it was like for her to be a sole breadwinner, not allowed to have superannuation because she wasn’t a man, not allowed to have a whole lot of things.

And so certainly we talk about progress. We’ve come a long way in lots of ways in Australia since then. But I find myself also now the mother of two daughters who, like most mothers, I think they’re pretty spectacular, and I want them to be able to actually make their full contribution to society and not be boxed into things.

Susan:

Well, Julie, late last year, Australians Investing in Women partnered with Deloitte Access Economics to produce your groundbreaking research around breaking the norms and unleashing Australia’s economic potential. I think we’ve got a copy here and in reading that, frankly, I was shocked to learn that Australia has gone backwards over the last sixteen years. We’ve moved from ranking 15th to 43rd globally in the World Economic Forum Gender Ranking Index.

And I was shocked because in that time there have been so many structural reforms and policy changes. You know, we have paid parental leave now. We have we have subsidised childcare costs. We have legislation passed around outlawing coercive control. So many things, and yet we’re continuing to go backwards. But your research provides evidence that we’re missing a fundamental issue in Australia, aren’t we?

Julie:

Yeah. And I think acknowledging and thank you, Susan, and thanks to Elston for opening up this conversation.

International Women’s Day, it’s actually – and you’re going to hear some incredible insights and opportunities around women who are around the world. And I think the temptation is often to think, oh my gosh, you hear about the work that you’re doing in often quite poor and developing countries and you think, wow, there’s no problem in Australia. We’re good, we’re equal, we’ve got federal sex discrimination legislation and all of those initiatives that you talked about.

But Susan’s quite right, we’ve slipped backwards. And even where we’ve gone forward, where it’s come to women on boards or women in executive leadership, it’s often been at a really glacial pace. So it only takes one chair of a board in the ASX 200 companies to really change the data. So like a lot of organisations, Australians Investing in Women is really trying to direct capital.

We’re trying to get private and corporate funders to direct capital where it will have the biggest impact. And we have a fair bit of evidence that says investing in women is actually the best bang for your buck. So I think what we are all frustrated by is we see a lot of initiatives and things are not changing. This pace of research really gets to the root of that problem, and that is that we are stuck in Australia in incredibly rigid gender norms that despite all of our contemporary legislation and initiatives, we still have attitudes and behaviours that really limit and dictate what men do, what women do.

We now have diverse gender, people of diverse gender identity, trying to remap that whole space. It’s a really interesting time, but we have this research that tells us we are losing as a country $128 billion every year because we are dictating what women do at home, at work and on the political stage. And until we can really break down those norms and expectations, we can have lots of initiatives and lots of things.

But we’re really fighting uphill. So our culture, philanthropy is really to say, applying a gender lens to the work, to the giving that you’re doing. The decision making is really fundamental in breaking down those barriers and norms, or at least understanding them and then being able to fund programs that really get to the heart of the systemic problem.

Susan:

You know, a lot of what you do at Australians Investing in Women is around promoting the role of philanthropy in breaking down gender norms and addressing gender inequality. So can you tell us what role does philanthropy play?

Julie:

Well, it’s got a huge opportunity, you know, philanthropy. I heard Andrew Tyndall describe today philanthropy is really the most powerful part of capital in that it can really drive change. And I mean, we all know this. If you’ve worked in philanthropy, it’s the standard narrative that says government’s obviously often restricted by what it can do. But philanthropies, money can be agile, it can be brave and bold, it can fund quite innovative initiatives and programs and prove that they work or test them and right and change those ways of operating so that that is a way of then saying to government, we’ve tried and tested this.

This is something you might want to fund on a bigger scale. So it’s really that sort of pointy end of social change. If you ask me, Susan, are they using it that way at the moment? Is philanthropy as an industry being brave and bold and doing that? I think in some areas, yes. But globally, gender has a much higher prominence than it seems to have in Australia, despite all of our best efforts.

Susan:

Well, I’d like to sort of shift focus a little bit now onto more of an international focus. Kate, Good Return works in the Asia-Pacific and is dealing with this inequity and the exclusion of women from opportunities to build financial security that’s the heart – at the heart of what you do. Can you tell us more about that and what barriers do women face in growing their businesses and their livelihoods in some of those countries?

Kate:

Yeah, I mean, you look at – I’ve been lucky enough to see the work sort of firsthand that we do in Cambodia and the Philippines and some of the things you see are the things you see in Australia, but on a much deeper level, you know that the contribution of women in our society is not valued.

Women are not given the same kind of access to training or education. They’re not given access to, to finance, to build their businesses – and if you can change that and if you give a woman an ability to access finance, if you give her training around financial literacy, all of the evidence suggests that she will do well, and she will build her business.

And then the value from that business is actually then returned to her family and her community. And it has this incredible sort of multiplier effect on those around her. And, you know, the work that we do is not just about supporting a woman individually. We focus on the system around her and we look to build the capacity and best practice of the financial institutions in developing countries in our region.

We support our partners in those developing countries to provide finance to women so that they can grow their businesses. And we also provide education and training to women to build their financial capacity and capability and their confidence. And those things are incredibly powerful at fundamentally changing the system that they are in and giving them an opportunity to sort of lift themselves and their families out of poverty.

And when you see these women, you know, all you have to do is give them the opportunity and they will take it so far. And the impact is deep and lasting in their communities and for them and their families.

Susan:

Effectively, you really talking about systems change, aren’t you? It’s much more than giving of microloans. It’s actually working at a system level in those countries.

Kate:

That what really appealed to me about Good Return. It was that it’s so sustainable. You focus on the financial institutions and the services that they can provide to support women in a best practice kind of way. You focus on partners who are able to provide finance to women so that they can build their, you know, their business.

And then you also focus on the women themselves around education and training, around financial literacy. And when you think about it and you know, your own experience and what economic empowerment means to you, it is about having a bank account. It is about understanding you know, the budgeting and you know, what it takes to build a business and how you can recycle your capital once you have some.

It is incredibly powerful. And the fact that we’re operating at a number of different sort of levels, the financial institutions, the financial partners and the women themselves, it’s extraordinary.

Susan:

And at the at the heart of what you’re saying, there is very much that integrated approach is the key to success. And I would love to hear more from you, Fiona, about how UN women are working beyond that economic empowerment, because there are clearly other areas of development and need to empower these women and make that a success.

Fiona:

So maybe just taking a step back and continuing what Julie and Kate are saying is that there is a need to put a gender lens on the work that’s been done and that was acknowledged by the UN back in 2010 when it established UN women. It was saying that actually we can have all the human rights and sustainable goals for our world, but actually unless we have a dedicated agency towards gender that is focused upon empowering women and ensuring that women’s human rights are addressed, then we won’t achieve that.

So I think it’s a really sort of important point. And then when we come to look at how do we improve the situation of women and girls in Australia, but all over the world, and we work in over 100 countries and territories in addressing some of the issues of women are complex, but there are also the women that are in the most danger.

It is, and it does call for a very sort of complex and integrated approach. And if I just sort of share, say, one example of a program that we have supported at UN Women and specifically UN Women Australia has done the fund raising together with our key partners, is sort of a market for change. When we look at our South Pacific region, it’s really high incidences of domestic violence, in fact the highest in the world, and that’s an economy that very much throughout the Pacific Islands.

If I take Fiji specifically, depends upon the labour of women and the selling of produce at the markets, but not having access to bank accounts, not legally been able to have access to bank accounts. Carrying cash sees high incidences of violence and robbery that often culminates in rape even in the most basic thing of transportation to and from the markets to home.

So this is sort of an example of how, yes, the entire marketplace for change needs to be work, but that’s sort of no good in and of itself unless you’re able to work with governments to change economic systems, to be able to have bank accounts that can be open. If you’re working with partners to be able to provide safe transportation.

If the marketplace itself can improve its hygiene and can have infrastructure and actually have leadership roles for women as vendors of this marketplace to make that change. So when we look at those kind of programs of markets for change, we can see almost like a case study of what we’re saying about the need for system change and both at a macro level, not taking the approach that just as we wish to eliminate poverty but actually having a gender lens, and then once we drop to the understanding a gendered approach, ensuring it’s systemic and integrated, which does call for nuanced and complex change.

Susan:

And you touched on, you know, violence there has been, you know, such a such a big issue and barrier, and it’s something I’d like to explore a little more. I mean, I was reading some stats and I’ve got them here based on data from 87 countries. So right across the world, one in five women and girls under the age of 50 will have experienced physical and or sexual violence by an intimate partner within the last 12 months, which is astounding.

And I guess there’s been decades of campaigning against this. It’s a priority for most countries. And it’s you know, it’s high on the national priority certainly in Australia. But we still see this recurring year after year. There’s clearly not enough being done. What is the UN women doing to address that? Because you work in those countries where those rights are very high.

You know, a lot of what you do at Australians Investing in Women is around promoting the role of philanthropy in breaking down gender norms and addressing gender inequality. So can you tell us what role does philanthropy play?  

Fiona:

Yeah. Again, to sort of say it’s approach that requires sort of action from the highest level of government to working in communities at grassroots level. And that’s one of the things I enjoy giving my time to UN women because I feel it’s very well placed to do that sort of looking around the globe, the issues of gender and violence can be incredibly ingrained with cultural norms.  

UN Women has played a role and continues to play a role in some of the middle Eastern countries where there’s legislation that pardons a perpetrator of rape, if he goes on to marry the victim. So campaigning and advocacy to see changes in those kind of laws is one of the things that UN women has been doing.  

But then if we look more to our neighboring countries in the Pacific Islands, the solutions, sometimes they are a lot more grassroots in the way in which we are working. A project that UN Women has is Safe Cities and Safe Public Spaces. Port Moresby was one of about five different cities where the UN particularly focused. It’s now rolled out to hundreds of different cities to ensure that basic safety of being able to walk around your city at night to eliminate the violence.  

One thing we’re really proud of at UN Women is through some crowdfunding. I give this as an example, $80,000, which is significant but not impossible. Bought a bus and a bus driver in Port Moresby to be able to take those women at the markets from their homes. So they could see practical improvement in their own safety.  

And women-only transport routes to eliminate the sort of violence that we may not realise exists in Port Moresby, but was actually really impacting the way in which women and girls were living.  

Susan:

And that, you know, is a relatively small amount of money. And I wonder too, Kate, you know, what would typically be the size of a microloan that that you would give a woman through Good Return.  

Kate:

Could be, you know, it could be anything from $50 to many hundreds of dollars. But we’re also trying to do things. We’re trying to scale things up as well. And, you know, in the last year or so, we launched our first impact investment fund, and that was all about instead of just focusing on, you know, an individual woman, actually looking at enterprises of scale in Asia Pacific and how we can focus on investment in bigger women’s businesses.  

So our work goes from very small microfinance to larger impact investment in places like the Solomons. And I think there is that sort of full gamut of things that people can be, you know, can be doing to support.  

Susan:

And I think often, you know, there is a perception, too, that there’s a really high default rate on those loans. And what would be the risk associated with an impact investment like that?  

Kate:

Yeah, it’s a very interesting perception? But I’m sure Australia’s banks would love to have the default rates that microfinance has. I think it’s a 99.99 sort of per cent sort of return.

So return is obviously a really big thing. I think The Economist – I saw some of that beautifully the other day – they were talking about educating and investing in women and they literally just said it makes them richer, healthier and more free – and that benefit is passed on to their children. So they inherit that. So it sort of sounds, it can sound a little glib just to sort of say it’s a multiplier effect.  

But there is so much evidence that actually if you want to really change poverty in a country, it’s bringing women up out of out of poverty and addressing those issues of violence and gender norms. And part of what I love about the work I do is that if I’m effective and successful, then Kate and Fiona and the work that they do ought to get more funding because people will go, oh yeah, well, I’d be crazy not to get that return on investment.  

Audience:

Can I ask you a question about the international agencies? What I didn’t really understand is the tax benefits of investing in these registered charities that you were talking, with the UN. I mean, while international investors get involved with the UN and in other countries, is there tax incentive for investors here in Australia?  

Susan:

Yeah, there is. I mean, we have over 25,000 charities registered as deductible gift recipient item one charities in Australia, and a small proportion of those do work overseas in what the government deems as disadvantaged economies. So Good Return and UN women whilst sort of domiciled in Australia and have that charitable status in Australia, do work in Australia, but also a large proportion of their work is international.  

So yes, an Australian donor can donate, receive a tax deduction for their gift and then that money is channelled into overseas countries.  

 Julie:

It’s a really important question and I think it would be interesting to just sort of build on that and say what are the beyond the tax incentives. Because we often make it quite difficult for Australians to give overseas. And that’s why, you know, you have to make sure it’s a reputable EFORT registered, you know, fantastic charity.  

But I think there’s also a considerable amount of self-interest from Australia about peace and security. And one of the really clear metrics is that when you do invest in women, there is a measurable impact on peace and security. And in the current environment, looking around the world, you know, that’s probably quite a big incentive for a lot of people too.  

Kate:

I think that’s right. And if I look, for example, at Good Return and we’re working through, you know, Asia Pacific and a lot of it sort of supports sort of the soft diplomacy that is coming through DFAT. So we are an EFORT accredited DFAT registered agency and we get quite a lot of our funding from DFAT.  

And it’s how Australia in some ways sort of supports its diplomatic efforts throughout the region in the work that we and other international development agencies from Australia are operating.  

Audience:  

On that point. I just wonder how you can possibly give through the state schools.  

Julie:

Can I jump in because I am not going to pretend to know the answer to that, but look, I think that there is a very targeted strategy that recognises what happens if we don’t do that. And it’s definitely growing. But I will stop and let the international experts speak on that.  

Fiona:

I do think that is correct. I mean, Australia’s and UN women’s work in the South Pacific has been going for a very, very long time and we at UN Women are actually working and have worked for the Australian Government, similar with, you know, hand-in-glove with DFAT. So and I would also say there are entire communities if we look around, I’ve been sort of in the field myself to see concrete – the lives of women and girls that have improved over that before, over a very long period of time.  

And partly our narrative is that we’re challenging the notion that gender neutral means gender equal. And I think there’s a very genuine belief that, well, if I want to fund in medical research or if I care about social programs like the big issue, for example, that give people employment and social connection and that bring them out of poverty, then I want it to be for everyone.  

And that is a perfectly reasonable view. But what we know through research and evidence is that unless you intentionally think about women and adapt your programs so that they work for women, what you intend to be equitable and even actually underserves women. And, you know, there are many, many examples. And I’m just going to point to these pecs that I’ve got over there for people who might be interested, and I know Susan will send out links for all of us afterwards, but just things that really make the case of you just have to ask a few basic questions.  

We’ve got Doug Hilton on our board now, and some of you may or may not know Doug ran the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute or he still does. He’s just announced his retirement. He’s a very significant person in medical research. And he talks about how his entire mind and business model has changed because of Eve Mahlab, who was the founder of our organisation, was on the board and I think probably drove him nuts.  

But every single decision was. But what will that mean for women? But I mean, what will that mean to women? How will that impact women? And he said it just became -  he doesn’t say it drove him nuts. But I, I can imagine it would have been hard yards. So he’s done quite innovative things like put childcare centres into the Medical Research Institute as a means of retaining.  

You know, we’ve got more young women graduating with science degrees, with better marks and higher numbers. But we’re losing on that investment because we’re not modifying things like childcare and the granting system to keep them in. And that is an issue internationally, not just in Australia. So it’s just really at its most simple, asking the question, well, will this work for women or how will it be different for women?  

Susan:

And I would like to thank you all. Kate, Fiona and Julie, most sincerely for sharing your insights and your knowledge and taking the time to be on our panel tonight. It’s been really, really fantastic. Thank you. Please join me in thanking them all.  

Julie:

Thank you, Susan. And it’s been always it’s always a pleasure to be with incredible women leading change. So please talk to these people and see how your investment might be able to help. But we are grateful to you. Thank you.  

Susan:

It’s a pleasure.  

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To learn more about the three charities featured in this article, and their great work, visit the Elston Philanthropy page. If you have any queries about structured giving, feel to get in touch with Susan Chenoweth.